Tom Rowland Podcast Episode #005- Dr Joe Martin- Rags To Riches To Ruin To Redemption

Saltwater Fishing Podcast

Dr. Joe Martin is an award-winning international speaker, author, educator, and expert “man builder.” He’s authored or co-authored nine books, including: Are You the Man: 201 Lessons I Wish My Dad Would Have Taught Me; The Real Man Spiritual Leader Blueprint; and Gifts & Handkerchiefs: A Lesson in Servant Leadership. Joe has spoken for more than 750 businesses, organizations, churches, colleges & universities, and K-12 schools/districts, and he was voted “National Speaker of the Year” by the Association for the Promotion of Campus Activities. He’s also the host of the “Real Men Connect Podcast,” the top-rated podcast on iTunes for Christian Men. We are going to find out more about his remarkable story of redemption from abject poverty, abandonment, abuse, and addiction, on this episode of the Tom Rowland Podcast.

I was introduced to Joe’s story by a good friend who heard him speak the night before.  His presentation was described to me as “the best speaker I have ever heard”.  I immediately tried to reach him and we set up a time to talk right away.  

I didn’t know anything about Joe and didn’t know what to expect from my time with him, but I was also blown away by his story.  From horrible conditions in Liberty City, FL (where Grand Theft Auto is set) to a 4.0 and honors in college to a great job and being the author of several books before the age of 30.  Then, he lost it all from a series of bad decisions only to get it back and then some.  Once he learned how to be a man himself, he dedicated his life to building men.  He now has an organization dedicated to providing men with the tools they need to be responsible and take care of those in their lives.

Joe and I shared an understanding of how creating a group of men around you to support, encourage and hold you accountable can have massive impacts on your life.  This group doesn’t have to be anything more that just some friends that you trust.  It helps if there is some activity that binds you together as well.  This could be fishing, golf, workout, or any activity that helps to bind the group together.  I find, personally, that if physical suffering is involved in this group it is even more effective. 

Joe's story will captivate you and inspire you as it did me.  I hope you enjoy this podcast and can take a few things back to your every day life.


● Dr. Joe Martin is an award-winning international speaker, author, and educator. ● Martin has authored or co-authored several books and was voted National Speaker of the Year by the Association for the Promotion of Campus Activities. ● Martin is also host of the Real Men Connect podcast, the number one rated podcast on iTunes for Christian men. ● After being raised in one of the toughest areas in the U.S., Dr. Martin has dedicated his life to creating an organization where he can mentor men on how to be responsible, make good decisions, and rise above their circumstances. ●


● Tom Rowland ● Dr. Joe Martin


Tom Rowland: I'm Tom Rowland and this is The Tom Rowland Podcast.


Tom: Hey, everybody. On today's show, I get to take a little bit of a departure from some of my hunting and fishing guests. I get an opportunity to hear a truly inspirational story by a gentleman that I was just lucky enough to get a little bit of time with. I'm going to read you his bio right now.

Dr. Joe Martin is an award winning international speaker, author, educator and expert "man builder." He's authored or coauthored nine books including, Are you the man? 201 Lessons I Wish My Dad Would Have Taught Me, The Real Man Spiritual Leader Blueprint, and Gifts And Handkerchiefs: A Lesson In Servant Leadership.

Joe has spoken for more than 750 businesses, organizations, churches, colleges, universities, and K-12 schools and he was voted national speaker of the year by the Association of the Promotion of Campus Activities. He's also the host of Real Men Connect Podcast, the number one rated podcast on iTunes for Christian men. Now, he didn't get all of these speaking engagements accidentally. Joe has a story that really is unlike any story that I've heard told to me personally.

Joe grew up in a place called Liberty City in Miami. If you're familiar with Miami, you may know Liberty City or you may know that that's just a place that you want to stay out of. If you're familiar with the video game Grand Theft Auto, that's where this is set, in Liberty City. Joe grew up there. He managed to survive, a lot of his friends did not manage to survive there, he gets out, and he makes it before losing everything again. He calls it a rags to riches to ruin to redemption story.

In his story, there are definitely lessons for all of us and Joe has figured out how to operate now. He's doing some things that are really making some big ripples in the world. He has decided to devote his life to creating an organization where he can mentor other men that are having the same kind of issues. The issues are that while he was able to do well in college, get out and get a job, then what?

Then what happens? You got money now, all kinds of stuff happens. You see it happening with NFL draft picks, top draft picks that make all this money and then lose it or do just crazy, stupid

things. Joe points out that that's because they don't know how to be a man to begin with. That's what he's devoted his life to, is to teaching people how to take care of their responsibilities.

How to live as a man in this world and not make these really stupid choices. I got a lot out of it. I think that you will too and if nothing else, it is a remarkable story of survival. We're going to get down to this conversation real soon right after I tell you and read this ad that Waypoint TV is an awesome place to watch hunting and fishing content. You can go there and watch over 2,000 episodes from 60 different producers producing some of the best outdoor content there is.

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I'd like to introduce you to my new friend, Dr. Joe Martin. I am sitting here with Dr. Joe Martin and we have some mutual friends. I am really, really thankful that you had a few minutes to sit down with me today because you've got an amazing message and an amazing story. I had a few friends that just saw you speak recently. I got two or three texts saying this guy was the best speaker I've ever heard.

I know these guys here a lot of speakers at these different luncheons and other things. I wanted to see if we could schedule a time to sit down because most of my audience-- I would say a large portion of my audience is men. and we have some kind of. We have some mutual-- just in the little bit of time that I've spent researching your work, we have some mutual feelings on building a group around you. Man, I'd just like to hear your story. You have something called Real Men Connect.

Dr. Martin: That's my organization.

Tom: That's your organization. How does this get started? Tell me your story because I know that you told your story the other night and it blew my friends away, the whole story. Man, I'd just like to hear it. How did you get here?

Dr. Martin: Well, first of all Tom, thanks for having me on. I love sharing my story. I'm not always proud of it, but I realize that a lot of times out of my stories, some of the tears I've had to shed has become medicine for other men. Plus-- I also found out that when you're open and transparent with other men, they tend to trust you more. I'll give you the ESPN version of my story because and I'm sure you can ask me and unpack a lot of stuff that I'll share with you.

The way I summarize it-- I can summarize it pretty much in less than 10 seconds, my story is a rags to riches to ruin to redemption. Four steps, rags, riches, ruin, redemption, so I'll touch on each segment. The rags part, I grew up in-- I heard that you do work down in the keys, but I grew up in Miami. I'm from Miami even though I live here in Chattanooga, grew up in a ghetto in an urban area called Liberty City.

For those your of listeners out there, if they're not familiar with Liberty City, if they've ever heard of the video game Grand Theft Auto, then they probably heard of Liberty City. For your older guys out there who are about my age 40 and over, if they've ever heard of a rap crew called 2

Live Crew back in the day. They're the reason why there's explicit lyric labels on CDs now, on music.

I grew up in that environment and it was a huge environment. You're talking about five high schools, two malls, so I didn't meet a white child till I was 12. My mom was a teenage mother. She had me at the age of 16, and then she had my sister at the age of 17. By the time she was a junior in high school, she had two kids. She was one of 12 herself, and her mom passed away when she was 12.

My mom didn't have a lot of motherly guidance. She had a dad, my grandfather who was from the islands, so he's very overbearing.

Tom: The islands?

Dr. Martin: Yes.

Tom: Like the Caribbean Islands? Dr. Martin: I'm from The Bahamas. Tom: Bahamas? Dr. Martin: From The Bahamas, yes. He was from Nassau. She thought that having kids will help her, be her take it out of that-- I guess, his authority. My dad who got her pregnant, couldn't handle it anymore. They didn't get along well, and he decided that he couldn't be a father anymore, so he left. My mom had two kids by herself. Can you imagine being a 17 year old with two children?

Tom: No.

Dr. Martin: My mom was very, very smart, but she dropped out of high school because she had to take care of these children. Because this wasn't a life that she planned herself, and didn't see herself doing this, she became very depressed especially after my grandfather died. My grandfather died when I was 10 years old. Now, she's lost both parents by the time she's-- I guess, that time she had to be 27, 26.

Both her parents are gone, she's in her 20s, no education, two kids, no one there to help her. My dad is gone, so she became very depressed, and she started drinking. The drinking got so bad that she was drinking up to two six-packs a night. Only thing worse than that, she made me go get the beer for her. She would give me the money, but they wouldn't sell it to [inaudible 00:08:28] out of a store, they sold it out of a house.

Tom: Where is she getting the money to have it?

Dr. Martin: She worked two jobs sometimes, but she was a very hard worker, but she was a functioning alcoholic. She's the prototypical definition of a functional alcoholic that she looked like a million bucks when she'd go to work. She was doing menial jobs, but she's a very

attractive woman. Look great, but then she would come home, it turned like Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde kind of thing.

She did drown in misery, she would drink. When she used to drink, she used to get a very, very angry. She became very abusive sometimes, not just verbally, but physically. I had this depressed mother--

Tom: How old are you at this time?

Dr. Martin: At this time, she was 27, I had to be 10. I mean, I had some-- experienced stuff like this before, at least my grandfather was a buffer before. After he died, she just lost everything, man. She just felt like her life shouldn't go on. She cooked her last meal when I was 10. When I say cooked the last meal, no more preparing food for her kids. When my grandfather died, it's like she died too, but we were still living.

There was times I didn't eat, I would starve. My sister-- as we got older, she used to steal food to feed us, and she was my younger sister. With that going on-- my mom was physically abusive as well, I was very depressed as you can imagine as a kid. During that time-- that was just in the home, but in my environment, I was witnessing all types of violence and crime, just anger from males.

Tom: Like your environment, the neighborhood--

Dr. Martin: Yes, man. It was horrible. By the time I reached the age of 16, I had buried six of my friends.

Tom: That's violence, shooting, [inaudible 00:10:11]?

Dr. Martin: Yes, gang violence. These friends that I'm talking about, I don't believe-- not one of them was a criminal. It was just wrong place, wrong time and sometimes getting off of a school bus in middle school, drive-bys. I would say at least six times a year, they would do drive-bys on our school bus. It was crazy, so I lived in perpetual fear thinking that I was going to die as a child.

When you go to enough funerals and you start seeing your friends die, you got to believe you're next. People would try to tell me when they would ask me, "What's wrong with you?" I'd tell them, "I'm going to die. I'm going to die." You don't want to hear a kid say that. When they would tell me, no I'm not, I say, "How do you explain my friends dying? What? God just didn't like them or something?"

No one had answers for me, so I couldn't understand how was this happening. I'm spending too long on the rags part because there's a lot of this stuff, but I'm just trying to give you some context of what I was facing. I had a dozen friends, at least a dozen friends, and they had probably over two dozen friends who are doing time in prison. I have two family members who are doing life sentences. I have a brother who is hopefully getting out by the time this airs that he'll be out.

Tom: Oh, good.

Dr. Martin: He was in for the second time. This is what I witnessed. Watching my mom get held at gunpoint in front of me, being personally shot at because I was around the wrong people at the wrong time, so I always thought I was going to be the next person. To kind of give you a context of how bad it was for me and my mindset. When you used to ask kids in our neighborhood, "What do you want to be when you grow up?"

We had some great athletes come out of Miami, some make it to the pros. They would ask me, "Little Joe, what do you want to be when you grow up?" I was a little kid and I was usually the smallest kid [inaudible 00:11:39] was running around with. They say, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" I used to tell them, "Alive." That was my answer and I meant it.

I just wanted to make it to my 18th birthday. In addition-- I'm leaving other stuff out of this. I will tell you this, I remember that when I used to go to the bus stop-- I didn't meet a white child until I was 12. That's when they were integrating the schools and they busted me out of Liberty City to North Miami, which isn't that far away. I didn't even know we had South Beach until I went off to college.

I used to go to my bus stop and I used to get solicited by prostitutes. Imagine-

Tom: At 14, 15 years old?

Dr. Martin: You're talking about younger than that.

Tom: 12?

Dr. Martin: Yes, about 12 years old. That's was in sixth grade, seventh grade. Imagine some women flashing their bodies in front of you. You don't understand what's going on. It's very traumatic. My mom, when I was 12, after she realized that she can't pull herself together realized that "I need to help my kids. Especially little Joe because he doesn't have any males in his life."

She recruited a family member to help raise me. To his credit, he took better care of me than my own dad did and my own mom. He fed me, clothed me-

Tom: Was there for a moment there where she just said, "That can't happen anymore and I have to get some help here?" Was it a slow process to where she finally reached a-

Dr. Martin: I couldn't answer that for her. I don't know. As a kid, you're just experiencing it and living it. You don't know what's going on. I know a lot of times I questioned whether or not she loved me, whether or not she loved my sister because no one seemed to care about us. When she did that, at least she showed me that she was looking out for me.

She found my cousin who didn't have a criminal record, had a job, and had a car because we never owned a car. To her, he had the qualifications to help raise me, and he did take better care of me than my mom. He fed me, he clothed me. He did everything for me, but I didn't realize he was prepping me because he sexually abused me as a child for three years.

That was almost the beginning of the end for me because my life was going bad at that time, from 10 to 12, but when he did that, you can imagine how isolated I felt. How ashamed, guilt,

and fear all of those emotions and not having a way to process that stuff. I was suicidal from 12 to 16. Eventually, he left the house and that's a whole other story, but I'm going to get past that.

That's the rags part, so if we still got [inaudible 00:14:01]. I told you I was going to give you the ESPN version. Now, I'm giving you the 20-20 version right now. I knew I wanted something different after I did not kill myself at 16. I knew that I wanted to do something different. This is kind of embarrassing, but I wanted to go to college. Not because I was smart, because I've barely graduated from high school, 2.2 GPA.

I was at a predominantly white school. No one in our neighborhood was going to college, nobody, unless-- Even the athletes weren't going to college because they didn't even make it past high school. When I went to this predominantly white high school, I would go up to some of my friends and ask them what they are doing after high school because I was going to join the military. I figured that would be my way out.

They would tell me they are going to college. I'm thinking to myself, "They're not even smart. Why are they going to college?" I tell you this is embarrassing, but the only reason I went to college because I said to myself, "Okay, I'm dumb and they're dumb too, but they're dumb and they're going to college. Maybe I'm dumb enough to go to college too." That was my thought process.

I decided I was dumb enough to go to college just like them, so I started applying to colleges. I got turned down by at least 30 of them because of my SAT scores. I didn't have a high GPA. I got into community college because they'll let anybody pretty much into a community college.

Tom: At this point, it's been rough up to this moment. You've got a 2.2, probably very low SAT scores. College has not been on the radar. This is just kind of an idea that came into your head like, "I want to go, and all these other people are going." Like you said, "I'm just as dumb as they are, so I can go." That was it? You just got a little more interested, and a little more interested, and started applying to these colleges-

Dr. Martin: Pretty much.

Tom: -with help or-- because I've seen my kids go through this process and it's not an easy process. If you don't even know where to start, what does that look like?

Dr. Martin: Eventually, what I did is I went into our guidance counselor's office. Especially, as being poor, it was easy to get financial aid, I just need somebody to help me to do the paperwork. Even they were like, "I don't know if you're going to be [chuckles] your course material," but I wanted to at least try it. It didn't take much to go ahead and apply for college. It just whether or not I was going to go.

Tom: Then you're turned down for 30.

Dr. Martin: About 30, or at least 30 of them. They sent me nice letters about I wasn't-- "Right now, due to so many great applicants, we can't admit you this year," but it was based on my SAT scores.

Tom: Where did you end up going?

Dr. Martin: I end up going to a community college. They've even changed the name of that. That was Okaloosa-Walton Community College, which is about eight hours away from Miami, so I've never been outside my city. School's going to be paid for to get me started at my first semester in college. Now I'm getting-- this is riches part. My first semester in college I took 17 credits, which is crazy because you shouldn't take that many credits as an incoming freshman. 4.0.

Tom: 4.0?

Dr. Martin: 4.0. Never had As before except in PE.

Tom: How does that happen? I'm very interested in that.

Dr. Martin: Desperation. Desperation. I wish I could say more inspiration, but it's more desperation. Think about it this way. You see what I just left, right? I'm in a new environment. First of all, I get into this new environment and I don't hear any sirens? It's in the rural. It's in rural Niceville, Florida. Which is outside of Fort Walton Beach, Florida. If anybody is familiar with Fort Walton Beach, the Emerald Coast.

Here I am. There's nothing out there. Peace and quiet, and all I know is that I had been there about two weeks and I hadn't been shot at once. I didn't want to go back home.

Tom: Well, you don't want to go back home to sit-- When you get into a situation to where it's just so far out of the norm for you, what does that feel like? Is it an immediate comfort like, "Oh, I love this place?" Is it like, "Man, what's going to happen next?"

Dr. Martin: Fear, because I didn't see a lot of black people. Fear of, "What if I fail?" Fear about what's happening to my family while I'm here at college because I would call my mom on Wednesday nights, and I will hear gunshots in the background. She assured me it wasn't at her, but it was out in the street. I was just talking to someone on the phone the other day and I heard sirens because he's from South Florida too.

I could hear the sirens, it took me back to my childhood, but I used to hear the gunshots. It was fear, but what got me to get that 4.0 is that I didn't want to go back home a failure. I just fought my way through it. I would hardly sleep, I would hardly eat, I just was desperate.

Tom: At this time, you did poorly in high school. You haven't developed the study habits.

Dr. Martin: I wasn't a bad student. It's just that I didn't-- I let the fear of my environment at that time stop me from doing my best in school because my mind wasn't in school. I was thinking about, "Okay, is this guy going to molest me when I go home tonight? Is my mom going to be dead when I get home?" She'd be passed out sometimes when I come home. "What I'm I going to eat tonight?" My mind is not in school. I'm not focused on school.

Now, that those immediate needs were not an issue anymore as I go off to college, I could focus now on just everything on doing what I can do to succeed in college. That worked. That helped. I've never worked so hard in my life that first semester in college. I ended up graduating early.

Not really from that college, but I graduated-- I went-- I was offered academic scholarships to some of those same colleges that turned me down before.

The sister school for Okaloosa-Walton Community College was University of West Florida. Which is in Pensacola, about an hour away from there and about 10,000 students. I show up on that campus, I'm the only African-American male at all of my classes, man.

I never saw a place that looks so white before in my life. It was just everywhere I went.

Tom: You do have some history of that. The high school you went to-

Dr. Martin: Yes, but it was a predo-- It was predominately white, but there was a lot of black people around.

Tom: This is all white.

Dr. Martin: I'm not seeing black people anywhere. I'm there. I was joking around with some of our mutual friends. I said, "Even the white people walk around on campus like, 'Why are so many white people here?'"


Dr. Martin: They were wondering why it was so white. We had a nickname that we used to call-- students of color who went to school, we all knew each other. Out of 10,000 students, we all knew each other when it came to black students. Even one of my best friends-- he's still one of my best friends today, he's a white guy. He didn't know that we had a nickname for our college, because it is UWF, University of West Florida.

Students of color used to call it UWF, the University of White Folks. My friend Dan like, "I didn't know you called it-- " Then I'd say, "Well, we won't say it around you guys." I graduate there early at the top of my class at age 20, was voted student of the year out of 10,000 students on that campus. Bought my first home the semester before I graduated college.

Tom: How were you earning money at that point? You're an entrepreneur or you're in college?

Dr. Martin: I was working two or three jobs. Now, and as far as-- because people-- when I talk-- I lecture at college campuses all over the country, and they want to know-- The biggest thing they're most shocked by, not me graduating top of my class, not graduating early. "Anyway, how did you buy a house before you graduated?" Well, when I was a freshman-- Well, I was a sophomore at that time, going to University of West Florida.

My first semester in that college, this is how I got through everything in life when I got out of Miami. I would always go to a person who had the answer, and I would ask, "How did you do that?" Then they would give me the answer. I literally would do exactly what they told me to do, and I'll take action. I tell my students I would ask, get the answer and take action. It was as simple as that.

When I was coming in to University of West Florida, I knew from talking to people who had already graduated. They said if they can do it-- I always ask, "If you can do it all over again,

what would you do differently." A lot them said, "Man, I would have bought instead of rent." I said, "Buy what?" They said, " Buy a house." I said, "How do you buy a house?" They would try to tell me, but I couldn't understand.

I went to a person who would know better about buying houses than anybody. Which would be a real estate agent. I go to a real estate agent office at about 18-19 years old. I remember Jane Wilcox was her name. I said, "Miss Wilcox my name is Joe Martin. I'm a broke college student, but I won't always be. Give me about a couple of years, and I'll have some money. How can I buy a house?"

She starts laughing. I say, "I'm serious." She said, "You're serious?" I say, "Yes, I want to buy a house." I said, "Not now, but eventually." She said, "How serious are you?" I say, "I'll come by here if you teach me how to buy a house." I would go by her office and she would tell me how to keep your credit up and all this other stuff. I'm writing all this stuff, and I did exactly what she said.

I end up buying a foreclosure my senior year because I've never rented. I tell students-- I say, "It was that simple. I asked it to give an answer, I took action. That was it." I've done that with everything. I graduate there top of my class. I end up getting a great job working for the Federal Government doing public relations. My underground was public relations.

I ended up starting my first business at 22. I graduated 20, first business at 22. I became the youngest professor ever hired to teach in the State of Florida at the age of 24. Had my doctorate degree before I was 30. I moved my mom out of the projects a year after I graduated from college. Got her out of there. End up I working for the Florida Governor's Office at the age of 26 as the communications director for his community service division.

End up writing several books before I was 30 years old. I just-- success after success after success after success.

Tom: Now, the same thing when you're going to write that book. You don't know how to write a book. You don't know how to publish a book.

Dr. Martin: Went to another author. "Hey, how did you do that?" Gave me the answer, took action. When I started my first business-- I used to buy my suits from this guy downtown. He was from India, and he could barely speak English. I'm thinking, "This dude owns a business. He look like he could just learn a little language." I said, "Tee." His name was Tee. I said, " Tee, dude, how did you do this?"

He told me how him, his family came over to this country and what they did. Pulled their money together, and they did all this stuff. He told me this is how does it. I'm think about-- I did what he's told me to do and I start a business.

Tom: Genius. I mean seriously, you proved-

Dr. Martin: Who knew all you got to do is ask and people will tell you. [laughs]

Tom: That's exactly right, and you do. There's so many experts out there now that make themselves available by seminars, weekend things or whatever. Mostly, if you just ask somebody, they'll tell you. They're happy to tell you.

Dr. Martin: The problem is we're not humble enough to ask and say, "I don't know." I was so hungry, I was willing to ask anybody. I didn't care how old you were. I didn't care what color you were. I didn't care what your agenda was. If you have something I want, I'm going to ask you, "How did you do that?" I end up doing that. I got married at 22. Which is a really young age get married.

Even though I achieved all that success this is now going to the ruin part. I call it rags because by that time, I was earning the six digit income when I was in my 20s. I wasn't even an athlete .

Tom: You've got your mom up there, and she's doing well.

Dr. Martin: Now, I have a son and everything's going great. The problem was all these people I'm asking-- the experts, had everything. What I didn't know is how to be a man. I knew I was going to be a business owner. I knew how to be a A student. I knew how to be a homeowner. I knew how to be a good public relations guy. I knew how to be an author. I knew how to be a speaker, and no idea how to be a man, because you know why? Didn't have anybody ask. I used to think about his life.

Tom: You didn't have anybody to ask and you had no real role models all growing up, none of your friends.

Dr. Martin: No.

Tom: Nobody's dad was a part of your life.

Dr. Martin: No. A matter of fact, I'll tell you this-- Well, I take that back, there is one. I only had one person I knew in my neighborhood who had a mom and dad in the home.

Tom: Wow, a married mom?

Dr. Martin: Yes, married. That was a bad marriage. The mom ran numbers and the dad bootleg videos out of the back of his trunk.

Tom: That's your image of marriage?

Dr. Martin: Right.

Tom: That's your image of a family?

Dr. Martin: Right. I didn't see any examples of a great husband, a great father, so who could I ask, "How did you do that?" I can get the answers and then take the action.

Tom: You think that if you had come across that at that point in your life, that you were ready to ask somebody for that? Was that even something that you were looking for?

Dr. Martin: Not anything I was looking for. Not even anything I thought I needed, but it wasn't available even though it was what I needed.

Tom: At this point, you're like, "I got this man. I'm making money. I got my mom up here, we're safe. We're not getting shot at." Then this is [inaudible 00:26:14] different.

Dr. Martin: I thought this is what the American dream is about. Go back to when I was telling you about college. I wasn't even thinking about going to college till I saw somebody do it. They say they were going to do it. "What's that? You're going to college?"

Tom: It's not even on the radar.

Dr. Martin: It's not even on the radar. I didn't know I needed college until I talked to somebody who was going to college. I didn't know and I didn't really-- when I knew I needed this is when I ran into problems in my marriage. Here's the ruin part because I didn't handle the pressure well. Didn't understand, "How come this woman is not happy? I'm providing everything for her. She doesn't have to want, she doesn't have to work."

Tom: You met this woman in college?

Dr. Martin: I met her when I was a freshman at Okaloosa-Walton Community College.

Tom: She moved up there with you?

Dr. Martin: No, before we got married, she went off to another college, but we still were in a relationship. When I proposed, she left that college to come finish at the college I was going to. We were pretty young. By the time I got married, I was already a graduate. I had a great job and everything. This is wow, this is what you look for. You got a man who has a great job, great career, he could take care of you, he's a homeowner, all the other stuff.

When it came down to-- As we know if you're married, it's not going to be perfect. I didn't have anybody to turn to-- had anybody to ask. I thought, "Man, I don't understand. This woman is just not happy. What's going on?" Like a lot of men do when they don't know what to do, they turn to medicate. Man, she was a lot of things to medicate. It could be sports, working out all the time, drinking, drugs. With me, it was women.

It started with porn, and then it got into women to multiple women. With the access that I had, the money that I had, it's just like throwing gasoline on the fire. Now, also go back, remember I was sexually abused as a child for three years. What do you think that did to my identity as a man? Had me question it? Now, with this money and this woman isn't acting right. What do I need to do to-- What's going to prove my manhood?

Is it going to be lifting more weights? Is it going to be me drinking? Me being the life of the party? No, this is going to be me, "How many women can I get?" Especially when the women start responding like, "Boy, you're doing all that for your wife and she's not happy? Boy, if I was married to you." That became the beginning of the end.

Tom: To a young man, that's hard to--

Dr. Martin: Oh, don't give a young man who hasn't been taught how to be a man-- Well, you know this from watching sports. Give them a lot of money with no male role model and say, "Okay, now, be mature." [chuckles] Good luck with that. Ask Allen Iverson what he thought. Ask all these guys you see that we judge prematurely not realizing that they didn't have a blueprint or a model for what a man supposed to do.

I thought I was more educated, "I'm smarter than that." I go back to my survival mode of what's going to make me feel like a man, so it was women. I became a serial adulterer. Eventually, my wife found out and she couldn't handle it. I don't expect any woman to be able to handle that. I ruined a 16-year marriage and I lost my wealth, lost my integrity. Almost lost my health because unprotected, I could've killed her. I could've killed me and not know it.

Ruined my family. Here, how did I get all that stuff before 30 and lose it all before 40? I realized because I didn't know how to be a man. What I've been doing my whole life is trying to outrun my past by overcompensating, medicating, isolating, trying to get away, and say, "I don't need a man. I don't need help."

Tom: You know what? That's interesting because when I first walked in here, you just noticed-- which some people do, they see the way I'm built, maybe I have little cauliflower ear, and, "Wow, you look like a wrestler. Do you wrestle?" You said you wrestle too. That's something that I've noticed, that so much of the success or any success that I may have acquired at this point can be attributed in some way, shape or form to being able to tackle something one-on-one. I'm not afraid, I'm not afraid to get out there one-on-one with somebody else. I'm not afraid to be out in the spotlight. I'm not afraid to get up and speak in front of people.

I'm not afraid to do all of these things that come from a background of wrestling. What I've found as I've gotten older and more mature, is that that attitude is outstanding. That's great, that's confidence. That's confidence, that's being able to just say, "I can do it."

Wrestling is one of the greatest teachers of that, because it's just you and somebody else in front of a bunch of other people, and then sometimes in the practice room where there is no other people, it's just you and somebody else. That's when toughness comes out and that's when just your ability to either-- it's now, you're either going to succeed or you're going to fail, there's 50-50 chance.

That attitude has been very good and I'm very happy that I have it, but it sometimes as well it has been a serious detriment. A serious detriment to the fact that now I feel like I can handle anything by myself, and I don't have to ask anybody for anything else. In fact, I don't want to handle anybody-- I don't want to rely on anybody else. That's why I think I gravitated towards individual sports rather than team.

If you're good at the football team and somebody else clips on the way, that's it, all of your effort is for naught. I think I gravitated to that individual sport and I think that stayed with me for a long time in my life. Once I've understood the value of team, the value of reaching out to other people, and the value of asking for help, lots of things transformed for me.

The ability to build that team and not act like the Rambo or the wrestler, but I've also seen that wrestler mentality get people in trouble. Where one particular person that I know, his marriage

started going bad, all kinds of stuff started happening-- just wrestlers mentality, that's what he even told me. He said, "Man, this wrestler's mentality, I've dealt with that for three, four years before I reached out for help." He didn't reach out for help until she was gone.

That can get you in as much trouble as it can help you I think. For you, you start reaching out again at this point in your story?

Dr. Martin: Well, I didn't reach out. I just wallowed in my own misery. Because I'm looking back on, "How did I get here? You overcame so much and to now be here." I knew, I said, "What's wrong here? What's going on?" I end up being introduced to counseling to help me understand my past and what my root issues were.

Tom: Did somebody teach you that? Did you reach out to somebody and say, "How do I get over this unless you're in counseling?"

Dr. Martin: I'm glad you brought it up. Let me back up because when I was trying to save my marriage-- usually, when you trying to save your marriage it's, "I'll do anything. We need to get into counseling." Well, the counseling didn't help our marriage, but I realized I needed it anyway, so I stuck with it even after the divorce. I started understanding where some of my root issues were, because I thought, "Man, I'm just a porn addict. I'm just a sex addict."

No, that's what I chose to medicate with, but the question is what was I medicating? What I realized, I was medicating a lot of deeper issues, fear of abandonment, control issues because my life was so out of control as a kid, and I had no control over the results. I became domineering and it had been-- like you said, even wrestling, I wanted to be in control of everything.

I wanted success and failure to be on me instead of being dictated by other people. I didn't realize again, that I needed-- what I really needed was, and we should have known this from being a wrestler, that no champion has ever succeed without a coach. Every champion as a coach, even in individual sports. Tiger Woods has a coach, Michael Jordan had a coach.

Tom: Michael Jordan had a coach, many of them actually.

Dr. Martin: I needed a coach, but the problem was I didn't see any coaches who were qualified. Usually a coach is older than you, at least has more experience than you even if they're not a better athlete. They have more experience and they've had some success in something that they could show you how to get it. I had achieved so much so young-- believe it or not, most people were intimidated by me.

They're thinking, "That dude makes more money than me. He's more educated than I am. He's done more than I am. What can I possibly teach him?" Not realizing that doesn't define your manhood, I call it the "ations." I say, "Your occupation, education, compensation and reputation, and your level of intimidation shouldn't define who you are as a man." That's how we define it in society, "What do you do for a living?

Oh, if you do that, that means you must make a lot of money. Where did you go to school? Man, how many Twitter followers do you have? How many women think you're attractive? How many

women can you get? Wow. Guess what? Do you fear me?' Those are the "ations." Because of that, we think that's manhood. Imagine me stepping into a room, and I need a coach.

They're looking at, "That dude makes more money than me. He has a more prestigious job. He has more degrees than a thermometer. Wow, everybody respects him and fears him. I can't-- What can I do him?"

Tom: Did that happen though? Did you reach out to coaches and they're giving you the stiff arm?

Dr. Martin: No. I didn't reach out because I didn't think I needed one. I realize now that most men don't realize they need a coach until I raise the issue. I always ask them, I said, "Do you want to be a champion?" They say, "At what?" I say, "At anything." Every man wants to be a champion at something. Husband, father, employee, employer, manager, CEO. Do you want to be considered one of the best? 100% of men say, "Absolutely."

"Okay, who's your coach?" "What?" What champion has ever succeeded without a coach? If you tell me you want to be the best at something, and you don't even have a coach, you're delusional. Michael Jordan couldn't do it, and he was the best. Right now, if anybody said, "Who was the best at what they do?" They all say Michael Jordan is up there. If you want to be the best at what you do, how can you possibly say you're serious about it if you don't have a coach?

That's how I how get them to even think about it because most men aren't walking around thinking they need coaches. I was the same way. Then, when I realized that when I met somebody-- See, it didn't hit me until I met a man who wasn't impressed with all of that. He wasn't impressed with all the things I had achieved. Matter of fact, he made less money, less-educated. Nobody knows-- matter of fact, he's not even on social media.

Yet when I was in his environment with him, his wife, and his eight kids, and I saw the way they looked at him with a level of respect that I thought only money could buy, that only accomplishment and achievements can get. I'm thinking, "This dude has something that I don't have."

Tom: This guy-- how do you see that? How do you get around this person?

Dr. Martin: How did I get to this person? That could be a whole show, but I'll try to give you the brief version of it. I was lecturing at Florida International University in Miami. I lived in Tallahassee, Florida at the time. I was teaching at Florida A&M University. I was lecturing in Miami and this kid came up to me. It was servant leadership program for student leaders, and I had written a book on servant leadership. He bought one of my books.

He was the last kid in line. He asked me to sign his book. When I asked what's his name, he told me his name was Micah, but he told me not to sign it to him. He said sign it to his dad and it caused me to pause. I had sold thousands of books and signed thousands of books. Nobody's ever asked me to sign a book for their dad, so I asked him who his dad was. He told me his dad was a teacher in Miami, where I'm from.

I said, "Okay. Where does he teach?" He mentioned a middle school in my old neighborhood in Liberty City. I'm saying, "Wait a minute. First of all, that's one of the worst middle schools in

Miami. It's in Liberty City, and you're white." I said, "There's no white people in Liberty City. I never saw a white teacher." I said, "Is your dad white?" He said, "Yes, my dad's white."

I said, "Why is he in Liberty City?" He said, "He chose to teach there." I said, "What?" I said, "What does he teach?" He said, "He's in charge of in school suspension?" I said, "This dude is in charge of in school suspension at the worst middle school in Miami?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Wow." Something told me, "Time to give that kid my card." I'd give my card to kids who I think don't have a role model.

Obviously, this kid is not in need of a role model. He loves his dad. He respects his dad enough to buy him a book that he thought his dad would love on servant leadership. I give him the card and explain to him that I don't usually give it to kids like him, but I'm giving it to him because I want him to keep in contact with me because I just want to follow his life.

He's already in college, so he's going to be graduating in a couple years. "Dude, I just want to know, for you to have a father like that, that you respect and admire so much, I can't wait to see how your life turns out." He thought it was a weird thing, that somebody asked him, some stranger speaker asking him to email him and keep in contact with him. He took it, to his credit. Micah took it.

I go back home. Two weeks later, I get a call from his dad. His dad calls me up and asks me about the book and everything. He says, "My son told me you're from Liberty City." I said, "Yes." He says, "You wrote a book?" I say, "Yes." He said, "You're from Liberty City?" I said, "Yes." Then, he asked me, "How'd you get out?" I say, "Excuse me?" He said, "How did you get out?"

You know what I told him? Definition of manhood, that I thought was a man. Education. He said, "Shut up." I said, "Excuse me?" He said, "I don't want to hear that." See, he was a different type of man. He wasn't intimidated. He said, "No. That's not how you got out." I said, "Yes, it was."

"No, no." He says, "See. I've been teaching at this school for 22 years and I've been to 28 funerals. My kids don't make it to high school. I want to know how'd you get out to even get to college? To get the education, the compensation. Something happened." I broke down crying on the phone. He asked me after I told him the truth-- barely, by the skin of my teeth. He says, "What would it take to get you down here to speak to my kids?" That's how I met him. I volunteered to go down and speak to his kids.

Tom: That had to be something right there. You've been out of this place for a long time. You don't have-

Dr. Martin: At that time, it was about 13 years.

Tom: You do not have good memories of this place and now you're volunteering to go back down.

Dr. Martin: To go back for the first time and speak there. I'd spoken all over Miami before, at University of Miami, Miami-Dade, FIU, Barry University, all the colleges in Miami. Which I'd never visited when I was a kid. I didn't know those colleges were there. To go back to my old neighborhood, and he blocked out five days and I went to 16 schools in five days.

Tom: That's a [chuckles] lot of speaking.

Dr. Martin: I lived with him for five days in his family's environment, and it changed my life.

Tom: What does that look like? You go, he picked you up at the airport or what? Then--

Dr. Martin: He picked me up at the airport and he takes me back to Liberty City. I asked, I say, " Mr. [inaudible 00:40:51], you live in Liberty City?" He said, "No, no. I don't live there." "Why are you taking me there?" He said, "Well, I want to make some rounds, and I want to take you and show you something." I said, "Sure." I find out he's an ex-wrestling coach. How ironic is that, right?

Tom: Yes.

Dr. Martin: Matter of fact, I believe we actually probably met and I didn't know who he was when I was a kid.

Tom: Really?

Dr. Martin: That's the craziest thing about it. When I wrestle, he mentioned some of the players who I wrestled and it was some of the-- I'm like, "We had to be sitting apart, not knowing our worlds are going to collide about 20 or 30 something years later. He takes me in the neighborhood. He's checking on the kids from his school. "Hey, Mr. [unintelligible 00:41:28]?" "How come I haven't seen you today?"

He's going around, and I was nervous because it was getting dark because he's a white dude in this neighborhood. It was like he was so comfortable in the environment. Then I started getting nervous because they want to know, "Who is this dude with you Mr. [unintelligible 00:41:40]? "He's all right" "You sure? You want us to check him?" "Hey, I'm with the man, leave me alone."


Dr. Martin: He takes me in front of this house after we've checked on all of the kids. He stops, and it's a crack house. He says, "Joe, do you know what this is?" I said, "Yes, I know what this is. Do you know what this is?" He said, "Yes." I say, "Then why are we in front of a crack house, Mr. [unintelligible 00:41:59]?" He says, "Well, I wanted to show you where it happened." I said, "Well, what happened?" "Oh, where they found my dad's dead body."

I'm like, "What?" He says, "When I was 19 years old-- when I came home from college, my mom told me that my dad was murdered. Was carjacked in Carol City which is a neighborhood, another hood North of Liberty City. They found his car there, but his body was found in front of this crack house." I said, "Mr. [unintelligible 00:42:28], let me get this right. You've come back to a neighborhood where they murdered your father?"

He says, "Yes." "You're voluntarily working at a school with the worst kids in a community where they took your dad away from you? Why would you do that?" He told me, he says, "Joe, don't you see? They took my father because they didn't have one. I felt if I came back here and I

volunteer to become a father, maybe they would never have to take another one." It blew me away. The only question that had popped in my heart was, "What kind of man is this?"

That changed everything because I [unintelligible 00:43:08] "What kind of man?" I've been exposed to males my whole life, but never a real man. Now I tell people, I said, that you're a male by birth but you're a man by choice. I grew up around a lot of males who never chose to be men because they were never taught how to be. I was one of them.

Tom: They didn't know. You're just the same. You have no role model, nobody to teach you. Just like you had had so much success just asking people. There's nobody to ask.

Dr. Martin: There's nobody to ask. I equate it to swimming because I said that we're all meant to be lifeguards. The problem is, most of us don't know how to swim and we're afraid to tell somebody we don't know how to swim. What do we do? We fake it. We start compensating by, "If I can't be a good swimming, I'll be a good climber climbing the corporate ladder. Success, accomplishment, achievement, success, accomplishment, money, women.

Now, you won't ever ask about my swimming." Then sometimes you have guys like my dad who ran from the responsibility. He was a great runner. "It's not my responsibility. Hey, I didn't ask for this." Then you have those guys I call fighters when they can't swim. They fight because they're angry all the time, and they're bitter at the world. They're blaming everybody. You have to be on egg shells when you're around them, especially if they're married.

Don't say that to your dad because you know how your dad gets. It can be easily blow over to domestic violence. The thing is, we're doing all of that so nobody asks us, "How's your stroke? Do you know the stroke? Your swim strokes." You weren't put here to be a fighter. You weren't put here to be a climber or a runner.

You were put here to be a lifeguard, to protect the position that you've been given by God, the territory to watch over, be safe and secure and make people in your responsibility more productive. They should look to you, they should be able to relax because you're on watch. You're on guard to protect and serve, and to give your life if necessary to save them. The problem is, when you still have those problems like in my marriage and my wife was trying to warn me, "How come you're not meeting my emotional needs?" One of your kid is struggling with their sexuality, which you don't and then if we don't know how to jump in that water and rescue them, they're going to die. Here's the problem, they're screaming, "Help me, help me," and what we're doing? "I don't know how to swim."

All this time we had them fooled thinking we could, and we don't even want to ask anybody, we don't want to tell somebody, "I don't know how to swim." Right now I'm mentoring a guy who's 83 years old today, 83, he's been married for longer that I've been on this earth. After one of our small group meetings, he came up to me and said, "Dr. Joe, will you mentor me?" I said, "Man, you're 83 year old", He said, "Yes, but I don't know how to swim." I said, "You've been married longer that I've been," He said, "I don't mean I still don't know what I'm doing."

That's when I realized age doesn't make you mature, it just makes you old. He was brave enough and bold enough and humble enough to tell me who was young enough to be his grand kid that I don't know what I'm doing.

Tom: Those are very good descriptive words there, humble. He's been living on this earth for 83 years, why should he ask for help.

Dr. Martin: Why should he ask for help, who's going to believe him?

Tom: Then just to your point earlier, he's 83, why should a coach take him on, just like you said.

Dr. Martin: What can I teach him? I realized I could teach him a lot, because he wasn't taught and when we dig in his past, we realized that his dad didn't teach him how to swim. There's where the problem is, our fathers who were meant to be our lifeguards are not teaching their sons how to swim because they're too busy climbing, running, fighting.

Tom: I don't want to get too far ahead but obviously that's where you're going, is to be the teacher, to be the coach, to be this person. You're the lifeguard of all these people but you're teaching lifeguards, you're holding lifeguard school.

Dr. Martin: That's the redemption part where we are, because the how I got here and now with being I call it a builder of men, I consider myself a certified professional man builder but I'm a lifeguard trainer basically, is what it is. How I got here is when Howard, now he's not known missed minutes. After I was leaving that day, after he took me back to the airport at the end of five days I say, and he gave me all these materials to be a better man and also because he didn't think he's going to see me again. I said, "Howard, I know you got eight kids but would you adopt one?"

He's been my spiritual father for the last 15 years. He would text me almost every other day, we talk probably maybe once a month, twice a month.

Tom: Does he still live in Miami?

Dr. Martin: Well, he's not in Miami, he's in a place called Miramar in about from South Florida knows where Miramar is, it's a little bit outside of Miami. Once I got all out I was getting ready to tell you that, it's been a 15 year relationship going almost 16 years but in the middle of that relationship, I'm so thankful because I'm growing leaps and bound. I'm now remarried, I have custody of my son, now I have a daughter, well, you just met my wife today. Life couldn't get any better. There's still part of me thinking, "What if I would have met him earleir? I can be retired. "

I'm having this regret about, "God, why so long to meet Howard?" One day I'm having this conversation with Howard, I said, "Howard, I can't thank you enough what you've done for me man, I can't begin to repay you." By the way his son Mike is now a professor at [unintelligible 00:48:32] His kids are all doing well, but I'm not surprised. I say, "Howard," then he says, "Joe, it's not for you to ask those kind of question man, just be thankful-". Howard's being nice, because after I left his presence I said, "God, I don't get this, I ask you for a man all these years and you never sent me until I was 33 years old, I find Howard." God revealed to me why.

Howard wouldn't tell, Howard knew the answer but he wouldn't tell me. God says, "Well, I wanted to but you were too arrogant to receiving it. You wouldn't have listened to somebody?" [crosstalkl]

Tom: How did that message come to you?

Dr. Martin: Just through God revealing to my heart, "Just ask, because if you ask, God will reveal it to you." And people say, "Do you hear God?" "No, I don't hear God with a voice, He speaks to your heart," They say, "How do you know it's God?" When it's not something I would say to myself, but it's the truth and it hurts a little bit but I don't feel condemned by it. The other voice that says, "You're nothing, you're worthless," that doesn't come from God, that's coming from the enemy. When that word comes to you says, "Do you really want to know the answer to that question? You weren't humble enough to receive it."

Let's be honest, you made more money then, would you have been impressed with his credentials?" "No," "Would you have been impressed with his reputation?" I said, "No," you would say, "He's just a- But now that you've been humbled and you've lost what you thought was insignificant, you realized now that's more important than all of this other stuff. Now I've got your attention.

Dr. Martin: When the student is ready, the teacher will arrive. You weren't ready.

Tom: That's what I was about to point out is, that you're saying he was in your life before, but you weren't-

Dr. Martin: Yes, out of the radar.[laughs]

Tom: It wasn't on the radar, you didn't know what to look for. Maybe God puts him right there and says, well, give this a chance to see if it works and then you are like-

Dr. Martin: No.[laughs]

Tom: wrestling match to get to-. Then, 33 years later or however many years later, here it is again, let's try this again.

Dr. Martin: I remember I heard a comedian say once. He said, "People say there's a soul mate for everybody."He said, "I'm concerned." He said, "If there is one soulmate for you, what if you gave it a bird in traffic when you've got a bad day?"


Dr. Martin: You could have blown your opportunity.

Tom: That could have been it.

Dr. Martin: I believe that God has in us, grace and mercy that even if you miss it, he'll give you another chance because you'll be taking that test until you passed it.[laughs]

Tom: That's exactly right. What I'm interested in too is that there's this moment where you get these materials. First of all, I'd like to know what those materials were that he's given you and saying, you ought to read this, that's the first step. He sees your state and he says, you need to read this.

Dr. Martin: You need to read this, you need to listen to this, you need to watch this.

Tom: Do you remember?

Dr. Martin: I can't remember everything there because there's so much. It wasn't the fact that what he was giving me, it was why he gave it to me and why he thought I needed it and I never had anybody say, use this. This is it, Joe. What you've experienced over the last five days, you see me do. Pray with my children, do devotionals, have quiet time, Joe, this family devotion we do, we eat dinner together. Joe, don't look at me and be at awe at me, because I was in awe of him, "What kind of man is this?". He said, no, no, no, no, Joe. No. I was taught how to do this and I'm telling you the best resources. That this is a curriculum I use with my kids. This is how I learned to pray for my children, this is how I learned to talk to my sons about sex. He has five boys, three girls. This is how I learned to take my daughters on dates so they understand what a real man is. It really wasn't what he gave, it's the heart that he gave behind it.

Tom: It's the Intention.

Dr. Martin: Yes, it was his intention so he's teaching me. That's why I tell you the redemption part is within seven years of conversation and I said, Howard, I know I can't repay you, but if I could do anything for you. Man, you name it I would do it. I said, my family, is reaping the benefits now based on your intentionality. What can I do to ever repay you? He said, "Joe, just do one thing for me." I said, What's that? I am hanging on every word. He said, "Go make disciples." Basically, he was telling me, go train some lifeguards.

Tom: Right. Train life, set up your lifeguard school, get it going and that's what you can do to repay him.

Dr. Martin: That's why I'm here today with Real Men Connect because of the inspiration in his intentionality, I said, "What can I do to repay back Howard for what he gave to me?" Pay it forward.

Tom: Right. He don't want anything from you.

Dr. Martin: He don't want anything from me. He sits back and he's just loving what he's watching and I know it's got to make him think, "Wow".

Tom: Do you ever have him come to an event?

Dr. Martin: Now, he's heard me speak before. I cannot even get him on my own show. We have the number one podcast in the country for Christian men and I can't get Howard on. Every time I ask Howard-

Tom: He won't do it?

Dr. Martin: "No, no Joe. Don't put me out there like that.I do want it." To a point, his humility makes me mad because I think it's ridiculous sometimes and I get on him about it. I say come on man, you're not even on social media. He won't even get on social media.

Tom: Maybe he doesn't understand-

Dr. Martin: He's not old[laughs]

Tom:- because he's not on social media, maybe he doesn't understand the impact that things like a podcast or things like a real, serious conversation, not a canned 30-second little piece of this. Where somebody really gets to know him and really gets to understand what he was thinking through this whole thing. Man, that could be powerful. Maybe he just don't understand it because he is not a part of it.

Dr. Martin: He has a book, he won't be interviewed. Even when he brought me down, I wanted to tell the story of how I got there and he didn't want me telling the story. Right now he'd be mad at me sharing this on the air with you right now. His thing is, he doesn't want attention drawn to him. Like you asked, what did he put--He wants you to say, get the heart, have the heart. You don't need to know who I am, you don't need to know my name. Do what you saw me do.

Tom: You don't often need to know someone's name but you do need to know their story because the story is the motivation. The story is the connectiveness between people that go, "Man, that's me, I need to be part of that. That's me I need help with that. Wow, I'm not like any of that, he just said something that sounds exactly like me." It's the story that connects people and then hearing that story, makes people reach out I think.

Dr. Martin: Now you don't want me to blow you away now. You know what's the most amazing thing about him? I didn't know it until I built a relationship with him. He does this with a lot of other guys. He would never admit it, but in all honesty, I'm not even his favorite person he's mentored. [laughs]. I've probably done the most because when I talk to him, he's always mentioning these other guys. Not his own children, these other guys. I'm thinking, "He sure spends a lot of time with them. You don't even spend that much time with me like that." That's what's so amazing that-- He does it incognito. He just does it under radar.

I've learned a lot from him and I know he won't be with me forever and I'm okay because everybody's thinking, "How's Joe going to respond when Howard goes on to the other side?" I'm good, I'm not going to be devastated because I'm taking full advantage of my time with him now. Also, he inspired me to go get other guys like him. Now, Howard is not my only guy now. I got other five guys like Howard now because you can never have too many good coaches.

Tom: Now, when you go to find another mentor type relationship, do you look just at this overall person and you're like, "Now I want to be like him or he's done something that I want to do?"

Dr. Martin: It's more so and this is going to sound crazy. I don't know many men who do this. You know how I measure a man?

Tom: No.

Dr. Martin: By the size of the smile on his wife's face.

Tom: [laughs]. That's good, I like that.

Dr. Martin: The first thing I look for is, I see him around his wife. If you met my wife today, I always went-- When I let you in the door and you were walking towards her, I was looking at her and not you because I want to see the smile on her face when she sees you. My thing is, what I look for in a man is his closest relationships, how he's-- I used to look at what he was doing. I used to look at how well he was doing. Now what I see, I look at his relationship because you know what's the relationship's going to reveal to me, his character.

Tom: Well, I know that and I have the same habit of looking at their closest relationships like that. That's what I noticed about you, first thing when we talked on the phone today. First thing you said is, "I've got a sick daughter and I've got to get some stuff for her." Second, I said, "Well, do you want to bump this to tomorrow?" You said, "No, tomorrow is date day with my wife, so that's off limits." I could tell from your tone, "No, that's not going to happen. We're not bumping this till tomorrow." I'm thinking, "Hey, this is a man that's got his priorities in check." Those are the two most important things and that's cool. Right away I just know--

Dr. Martin: Guess what I learned there from coaches, I learned that from Howard. If they're not smiling-- See, I learned this from ruining my first marriage. If they're not smiling, nothing else matters. It's not about making them happy, but I want them-- When I saw Howard's wife for the first time and those kids, they revered him. I'm thinking, "How do you get that? They know you when you wake up on the wrong side of the bed, they know you when you're sick, they know when you lose it, but yet they still look at you that way." That's what I looked for in him.

If you can win them, you can win anybody. Here's the great thing about it, if I can win them, I don't care what anybody else thinks. They're my most important relationships. I look for guys who have that. Then I meet a guy and I can fall in love with the guy, "Man, you're great, man you're awesome. Can I meet your family? I think you're great but I'm not sure yet until I know what they think of you." It's a little bit easier now in this day and age because you can look at social media. People say, "Well, social media is not really real life. No, it's more highlight reels."

However, what you can't tell and they can't fake on social media, is them talking about their wife, their kids and those pictures of their wife and the kids. See, you can doctor a lot of stuff but just what you-- See, I can't talk about how ministering to men and disciplining men and coaching men and then my wife can get on social media and tell them say, "He's a fake. He's lying. Don't listen to him" My life is public. Even if he's not showing a picture of his wife, if he's talking about-- His wife can debunk that immediately. You see what I mean?

Tom: Yes, she can debunk that but also I've got to admit that I certainly see some people painting a picture of their adventurous lifestyle, they're painting a picture of this perfect marriage, they're painting a picture of this. Which can be some of the problems that, now they've painted this picture on social media, now everybody believes it and they don't need to reach out for help. They don't need to talk to anybody like you because they got everybody fooled by that.

Dr. Martin: Now, when we have been able to get through that, I was telling the guy I met before I came here, I create this thing called a spiritual check-up. Something different that we get physicals every year, I said, "You should get a spiritual checkup". Now, spiritual checkup isn't just about the spiritual, but it's about your emotional, relational and spiritual wellbeing. I created this assessment, if your listeners they go to It takes five minutes to take assessment. It's not going to ask you about how much money you earn, it's not going even

to ask you about your wife or your kids. It's going to measure you at five areas and you can score yourself, it takes five minutes and it's going to reveal to you where you are spiritually, emotionally, relationally. You are going to see what you need. It's no different if you went to a doctor and say, "Okay, here's your lab results. It's going to get results", you don't get mad, you just say, "That's the area I need to strengthen."

Tom: That's very interesting.

Dr. Martin: I haven't seen any exception to it, any man who's strong in those five areas is probably having a great life. And, now it doesn't mean his life is perfect. It just means his relationships are intact. And that he feels confident, he feels good about himself and his family is in good shape. He's doing life the right way. Now, it doesn't tell me that he's rich. Doesn't tell me [laughs]

Tom: Rich is not measured in mind.

Dr. Martin: We are not even measuring physically how his health is, which is important but we are not measuring that. That's why you go to get a physical. We are talking about a spiritual where you look at your relationships, you look at you emotional state of being as well as your spiritual component.

Tom: A lot of people don't look at things like that. Don't even pay any attention to it as well as they also don't pay attention to their physical health either. But you know I think we ought to be looking for abundance in every area of our life.

Dr. Martin: In every area of your life. Financially as well.

Tom: Yes, of course why not?

Dr. Martin: And socially.

Tom: Yes, but you don't measure or I don't measure riches with dollars. Riches is measured in freedom. Riches is measured in love and relationships and just an overall satisfaction with your life and a real, obvious lack of regrets. If you can live your life without regrets, you are doing pretty good.

Dr. Martin: Could you imagine being in hospital and you only have a limited amount of time to live and- when last did you hear somebody say, "could you roll up a will bear of my money and let me see how much money I'm going to leave behind."

Tom: "I want to count it one more time."

Dr. Martin: Yes, "let me count it one more time."

Tom: [laughs]

Dr. Martin: You want the people who you love-- like you hit it on the head, relationships. God built us for relationship. Relational beings and out those relationships, all that other stuff, no regrets. Because if I would have died when, what I did to my first marriage. Talking about

regrets. Talking about wasted opportunities. I am so thankful I did not die during that time. That God has given me another chance to redeem myself and redeem the time that I lost and I'm thankful for it. Now I told you my life is far from perfect I struggle like any other guy but man, I got a team of people around me, I got great guys in the huddle, I got some great coaches, got a great relationship with my family and I'm not wanting or hurting for anything because I got so much support.

Tom: On this rebirth almost of meeting Howard and then you really transformed your life. You went out you met a new girl you end up getting married, you have another family. Are there moments there where you still, I mean I don't know about this, it seems harder, I thought it was going to be like or was it just that was the road and just off you went down the road.

Dr. Martin: I hate to say this because I don't want to gasket the wrong person. No it ain't hard and not saying that it's easy but I'm saying it's not a struggle because I have support.

Tom: If you didn't know, right? Right after that moment you had him.

Dr. Martin: I thought you are talking about my marriage and being in a relationship now, if life has been easy.

Tom: No. Getting there.

Dr. Martin: Yes getting there. I doubted all the time. I was thinking to myself, I've messed up too bad. I know a lot of men who feel that way. That when you've done such bad, awful things and then you've lost it. You think I'll never get it back. It'll never happen for me. Who gets more than one-. Think about it, I've made it out of the hood to the pinnacle of my career and then you lose it. Who gets another chance? Athletes die for that opportunity. I had it and I blew it. Michael Vick would love to go back and look at his life and say, "what if I didn't do those things with those dogs?" Where could I have been? Am I going to be in the hall of fame now or [unintelligible 01:04:40] now. What if I didn't go to jail? It's those kinds of moments.

When I was coming out, that's exactly how I felt. I thought to myself that, man you've- how I was able to get through it, I had to get to a point of resolve and I said, "You know what? It doesn't matter if I never see that stuff again, I never achieve that again, I never get to experience love again." God, it's just me and you. It's just me and you and you are enough. Now, I'm telling you the truth that when God became enough, enough for me, that's when I was good. I gave a prime example how much that meant to me. I had custody of my son and I told him I was getting ready to get married. He and my wife, they love each other. They're close. He lives here in town and he says, "Dad, why would you want to get married? Your life is perfect. You're happy. You and I get spend so much time together. We got this house to ourselves. We get to travel all over the world. This is it Dad. Why would you want to mess this up?"

I understood where he was coming from. I said, "Kendal, what you see is a man who's successfully single." See, a lot of men are not successfully single. A lot of women are successfully single. They think they get married, it's going to make them complete. He saw me very happy even though I lost everything because now my life, I had a coach in my life now. I got some friends and support, my team, my teammates and now I'm getting counts. Everything

is working for me and even though I don't have a lot, I have enough. I'm good and I'm saying, "I don't care if I ever be married again. I'm good."

He tell me said, "But Dad why would you want to get married?" I said, "Because Kendal, you're too young to understand this now. There's a difference between being successfully single and happily married." I said, "Kendal, I know it's going to sound crazy. You think I got it good now?" He said, "Yes. That is perfect. You're going to mess it up." I said, "Listen to me, I know you don't get enough but listen. I know this is going to sound crazy but if you meet the right woman who's, you become can come one with, Kendall you ain't seen nothing yet on what I could be." He said, "Oh, Dad. Just that's it." "I know, just trust me. The key is finding the right woman and Kendal when it happens, I'm going to ask you what do you think."

I wish my son was here now to interview him because now he says, "I get it." He doesn't say, "I thought you were a great Dad before." But when I got a daughter who's not my biological daughter, he says, "Dad, you're more patient, you're more affectionate, you listen better, I thought you were good before. Where was this Dad?" I say, "Kendal, and you know why right? You think that just happened naturally? Actually, that woman pulled it out of me."

Tom: The woman and the child.

Dr. Martin: Yes and the child brings out the best in you.

Tom: For a dedicated husband, that it's a dedicated family man, you give yourself to that process and you turn into a different person. You do. You grow into it.

Dr. Martin: I don't even recognize me now.

Tom: What you don't recognize you now and people that knew you before don't recognize you now but I look at life before kids and after kids. First of all, I thought I knew what love was not until I had a kid. Then I have two kids and three kids and the love that you have with your wife and all that it just exponentially multiplies. It's really hard to have that conversation with a friend that doesn't have kids because they don't know what you're talking about. They just don't know and I don't know. It's been the most profound thing that's happened in my life.

Tom: He gets it now and he realized, "Dad, I see now the key is finding the right woman." I said, "Yes. She doesn't complete me. She complements me. Kendal, you saw what you thought was great about me. Didn't I have some problems?" He said, "Yes." I said, "But you notice how different we are but together we're better together than we are separately. See that's what I was trying to get you understand that you saw a good product but you didn't see how the product could be improved if those weaknesses were shored up. Now, you see us together there." Guess what, she would tell you the same thing and my daughter Faith like, "We were good before you bought this dude into the picture."

Now, if you met my daughter Faith, you can't convince her that I'm not her biological dad even though she knows her biological dad because to her, this is my father. I will tell you this and I give a plug for my son because my son and I'm really hard on my son because I think he should be, based on me being his dad, I know this sounds arrogant I'm like, "Dude, you should be most motivated, driven young man." My son is just figuring out life like any other kid, but one day he

told me, he was honest with me. I hope he doesn't mind me sharing this on the air with you, but we were watching a movie together of a kid who grew up in my old neighborhood.

Matter of fact, the movie won an Oscar called Moonlight. He said, "Dad, how do you feel watching that movie?" And I said, "it's emotional" because they shot it on site, so I'm looking at my old community. Matter of fact, I saw the high school I should have gone to, if they didn't bust me, that's the high school I was supposed to go to. He says, "Dad, I want to say something, please don't be mad at me". I said, "You know, you can tell me anything, man". He says, "I look at you and Tania", that's my wife, "and I say to myself, that could have been Mom. We could have been together as a family. I love Tania, you know that but Dad I can't help but think, what if? My dad would have been this kind of man, younger. Where will we be as a family?".

Me and Tania are celebrating over 27 years of marriage, going on 30 years of marriage and I couldn't say anything, I'm saying, "Ken, I'm so sorry, man". He said, "Dad, but then I think, if he was still been with Mom, Faith wouldn't have you as a dad and I couldn't do that to Faith". I broke down and cried, man. He says, "Dad, I could not imagine you not being in Faith's life", so I closed my door an hour.

I remember telling my daughter one day, "Faith", I said, "I love the fact that I'm your dad", I said, "I know this, I don't treat you any differently than Kendall". She says, "Yes you do". I said, "No, I don't. I treat you guys all the same". "Daddy, no you don't treat us any, you treat me better". That's what she said. I said, "No, I treat you differently". He said, "He'd rather me and his mom had gotten divorced than my daughter not having me in her life" because her dad abandoned her.

Tom: How old was he when he was telling you this?

Dr. Martin: Last year. He's 21 now.

Tom: How old is he, 21? That's a lot of wisdom coming from a 21-year-old.

Dr. Martin: Every time I think he's a knucklehead, he'll say something like that. I'm like, "Look at you man". I broke down crying and that showed me a lot of maturity on his part because I didn't even look at it that way, he said because he and his sister are close but he says, "As much as it kills me that you and Mom are not together, I'd rather Faith still have you as a dad". He sees how much it's meant to her and he wouldn't want to see his sister hurt like that. Man, I said, "How cool is that? You might get into heaven for that".

Tom: Could I extrapolate from that, that your lifeguard school, for lack of a better term.

Dr. Martin: We call it "The real men 300".

Tom: The real men 300 but the other is, "Real Men Connect?".

Dr. Martin: That's the program of the training.

Tom: The 300, what's the significance of the 300?

Dr. Martin: What it is, is that men, I believe, that they need to be strengthened in five areas, I'm talking about Christian men here but it can be any man but five critical areas. That's what the spiritual check-up will show you, it's only five areas. You show me a man who's struggling, he's struggling in one of those five areas.

The thing is, the test reveals where you are and what I realized when I looked at the numbers, 80% of the guys who take that test either are average or below, which is shocking. What that tells me, 80% of the guys who are taking the test, there's been 100s of them taking the test, 80% are below. That means 80% of the guys are really holding on, fight-knuckling it. They're either surviving or they're failing or they've just given up.

Imagine the doctor giving you a physical and you now realize your blood pressure's high but he doesn't give you a prescription. He says, "Just figure it out". Now you know that you've got to do something, "but don't ask me what to do about your blood pressure". I realized that we had this test that revealed, and everybody tells me, "It's accurate, yes that's exactly how I feel, that's exactly what's going on with me" but I didn't have a prescription.

Tom: What are the five areas?

Dr. Martin: The five areas is one, that they have to have, we call it Christ because that's who I believe in, Jesus Christ my Lord and savior but at least I tell them, even if they're not a Christian, something bigger than them. Every man must have something bigger than him or that means he's playing God and then we're all in trouble. What's his relationship like with him.

Then the second thing is connection. That's your teammates, who's in your huddle? How many guys do you have in your huddle who will love you the most when you deserve it the least? That one that you could have done the most heinous crime and while everybody turns their back on you even maybe your wife, he ain't going anywhere. How many guys do you have in your huddle, that's the connection piece.

Then you have community, you're only as strong as the number of men in your life, who's on your team? All the guys who are going in the same direction you're going, have the same vision. I'm not talking about your individual goal, you want to be a great husband, you want to be a great father and you want to do it to God's glory. How many guys like that do you have on your team?

We're talking about the huddle with the connection, community then I want to know who's coaching you? How many coaches do you have on your team? How qualified are they? Are they men you want to be like and emulate? Your coaches and then the last one is was last time you have counseling? Most guys don't want to go to counseling unless it's court mandated. That's the problem. I said, " When was the last time you went to counseling." I don't know man, about 10 to 15 years. What if I told you I've been driving around my car for 10 to 15 years time and I've never taken it for an oil change. They'll say, "Dude, are you trying to kill that car?" Well, what are you trying to do to your emotional, relational spiritual wellbeing if you're not getting a checkup. To me, I don't call counseling, counseling. I say, "When is the last time you had a tune up?" You had a tune up. Those areas. In measuring those areas, what we've done with the Real men 300, when they take that test. Now we said, "Now you have three options. One, you can ignore the test results." If I can have leprosy, I can ignore it. I'll just wait to die. Maybe I'll get

some good years in." That's an option. Nobody is mad at you. You can say, "You know what, boy I see some problem, I need to come up with my own regiment to fill these holes."

Okay. I need to start recruiting some teammates. I need start finding some some coaches. Man, I need to get these. I need to find a counselor, a good counselor. Well, I really need to start getting in my world and start." You can do that. Then do it. Do it today. It could take you. It's going to take some time to get that process going. The third option. Guess what? We've recruited all for you. If you tap into what we've created in the Real men 300. We have about 300 people. Who are either coaches, counselors, potential teammates for you. Here's the thing, I recruited them by Nick Saban. I'm building this so you don't have to. You can get that half the time. Not have to want to can I trust them. Can I really be vulnerable with them? Can I really tell the truth? People come to me a lot through our organization. Real Men Connect. Joe, who do you recommend? Who do you refer? Who can you connect with? I tell them, you know what? I will make easy for everybody. We're going to create a program called the Real Men 300 with these select men who are all trying to do the exact same thing. We're there to encourage, inspire, motivate and hold each other countable. To do what we know we need to be doing.

Tom: How does this take place online or?

Dr. Martin: All of the above is online, offline. We have. A lot of it is done virtually online. They can also do it one on one with me through coaching. They can do it through email. We have some groups that we run here in town. Obviously, they cannot do it in town if you're in Chattanooga. Even if are we have people all over the world. They can do it virtually on a computer. Like tonight, I have a meeting called Real Members Tour. Which is part of the 300. These are men who've gone through very traumatic stuff. They're trying to get their lives back in order like I did. I have some people called "recovery groups". I've been in. I was in recovery group for seven years. I love recovery groups. There's some things about recovery groups I don't like. That they identify more with your behavior than your identity. When you start taking on the identity of, I've been an addict. Or being an ex con or being whatever. Even though you may be taking responsibility for it. Now you see yourself as that. I said, "Listen, what's the problem with that I said because when I stand before God he's not going to say, " Hey ex-sex addict." He could say, "Hey my child. My beloved."

We're holding each other accountable. How's your week? What was going on? What can you do differently? Remind them of who you are as he sees you, not in your behavior. You're not what you do. You're who you are. What you do is just a choice you make. Even though I was probably one of the worst adulterous out there, I'm not going accept the fact you can call me an adulterer. That's what I used to do. That's what I chose to do. I paid the price for it. If you asked me who I am, I'm who God says I am. I'm beloved child of God. Who's saved by grace and His mercy. That if he didn't hold me in his right hand, I would fall apart in a heartbeat. That's who I am. That's what he's going to call me when I see Him. We're about having a community who all believe that. If you're not there, we're going to help you grow into that. I've built this team that didn't exist before. Say, "I'll do the recruiting. I'll be the next Saban. Get all the coaches we need. Get over that." Now if you want no different in Alabama. You can come. You can join the program. You can try do your own thing and find another team you want to be a part of. I spent a lot of time creating this.

Tom: How much time have you spent? When did you start building?

Dr. Martin: Three years ago.

Tom: Three years ago, did you have the vision of it growing to where it is now? [crosstalk]

Dr. Martin: It just evolved, it evolved. I remember when it first hit me as I was building all the stuff, launched the podcast, over 100 YouTube videos. An app that guys can have in their phone. All of this to give access to all these free resources. Do on blogs and all this other stuff. Having a private community. It's still I had it all if it was not disjointed. I just thought they need this. Then one day I'll fly back from El Paso after speaking engagement, God spoke to my heart and said 300. I said 300 what? He said, "300 men." That's all you want me to reach, 300 men? He said, "300", I'm thinking, "I spoke to more than 300 men just now, that's nothing". I didn't get it until I came across a quote when I was on my phone, I was cutting off my phone and right there on the plane, getting ready to cut off my phone, I see a quote from John Wesley, was the father of the United Methodist Movement. He said, and I quote, "If you give me just 300 men who fear nothing but God, hate nothing but sin and claim to know nothing but Jesus Christ crucified, we'll set the world on fire". Almost dropped my phone.

I'm like, "There it is. You're telling me if I can just find 300 men who desire to be lifeguards the right way, who are not going to fake like they know how to sim, but want to actually learn how to swim and then want to teach other men how to swim, you mean we'll change the world?" He says, "Yes". That became my mission statement on Real Men Connect, but here was the problem, "That should be easy". You know how hard it is to find 300 men like that? It's almost impossible, but now I'm going to spend the rest of my life doing it.

He said, "you got more than 300 men now." "Yes. But they're not really the 300. The 300 are going to be the lifeguards that develop. Right now we're just teaching everybody how to swim, but I'll be looking for the 300 who want to teach others how to swim. Right now we're not even close to getting 300, we just got a lot of people who'll learn how to swim, but we'll get there" [laughs].

Tom: You're making-

Dr. Martin: We're going to get there.

Tom: You're making some major waves in that pool.

Dr. Martin: Yes.

Tom: Those waves are going to extend out way beyond that pool. In the ocean and across the whole ocean. That's the way it starts.

Dr. Martin: Most of my days are spent recruiting. That's what I do when I get up in the morning until I go to bed at night. It's either I'm giving swimming lessons through stuff we produced already on our website and all the medium that they get us through the media, or I'm looking for potential guys to put in to the 300, to say, "Hey, we need you. You'll be great for the 300". The

guy I just talked to today, brought him in today, had lunch with him, "Hey, man, come on in", he said, "Tell me about the 300. I'm in". That's what we're doing.

Tom: That's awesome. I can't tell you how impressed I am with your story, not just from rags to riches, that's a nice story and you hear it all the time.

Dr. Martin: The ruin to redemption [laughs].

Tom: The ruin to redemption is quite the thing. I just want to compliment you on your ability to have this vision, stick to it and really devote your life to helping other people in a way that when you help one person, that's helping a whole community.

Dr. Martin: Yes.

Tom: Really, when you touch one person, you really light a fire under them like a fire was lit under you.

Dr. Martin: Under me, right.

Tom: That spreads. I know you know this, just one person in a community can make an amazing difference. When you're doing that all over the world, you are changing the world, one person at a time. I thank you for it, it's really an amazing story and I really appreciate you telling it to us. Why don't you give me all of the ways that people can connect with you and how that looks?

Dr. Martin: I give them three, and that be the three easiest ways. If they want to see what we do as an organization in all the free stuff we have that's available, just go to That's realmen, M-E-N it will take you to a portal, you can go in any place you want, there's like 12 different places that you can go once you get to the portal.

If they're interested in the 300, in becoming 300-- because some just want the information, they don't really want all of the other stuff, don't want to be part of all that. That's cool too, but if they want that, want to check out, go to realmen300, that's and they will go to find out just about the 300.

I'll mention a third thing, which we already mentioned on the air already, if you want to get an assessment where you are, because maybe you haven't had a spiritual or a physical in a long time, go to, that's my myspiritualcheckup-- all one word .com it takes five minutes and you'll be done. You'll at least get an assessment because my thing is what you don't know is not that it just won't kill you, it could destroy you. Sometimes dying it's not the worst thing, it's a slow death. That could be the worst thing.

At least know where you are and where you stand, so you can say, "This is where I need help." or, "Man, I'm good". If you are and just do really well on that test, please promise me one thing, you'll go teach another person how to swim, how you did that because that's what we need to do. If we're good, don't just be good by yourself. Help someone else be good. I'm encouraging and if you need help on how to do that, contact us and we'll let you know. Those three places I think they'll get everything they need from us.

Tom: Joe, you're a beast. I appreciate it man, thank you. Dr. Martin: Thank you, Tom. My pleasure [crosstalk] Tom: I look forward to staying in touch. Dr. Martin: Same here.

Tom: I really do. Thank you, Joe.

Tom: Hi everybody, thank you so much for listening to the show, I hope you got something out of that. Got just a little bit of news, we have started a weekly show that is designed to be up to the minute videos of what's happening this week mostly in the Florida Keys but also in other places that we fish as well. We'll be putting that out every week and the best way to find that is just subscribe to the YouTube channel, YouTube/saltwater experience, Search Saltwater Experience on YouTube, subscribe to that channel and you will get updates of when a new video is published.

I've also figured out how to put the podcast on You Tube Finally. A lot of people like to put that window behind other things they're working on and listen to the podcast while they are working. We now have that for you and there's a playlist called podcast, there's a playlist called weekly show. You can go and see all the new videos that we're putting up there. Started a new email address specifically for this show and that is, Those emails come directly to me, I'll see every single one of them.

If you have comments, suggestions, ways we can make the show better, and particularly if you have suggestions of someone you would like to see me sit down with in the hunting world, in the fishing world, in the outdoor sports world or just a motivation or inspirational character or someone that can teach us all something, I'm very interested in your suggestions. That's You can get the podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, Sound Cloud. We're also publishing it on the blog, the weekly show will be published on the blog too, but the best way is to go to YouTube. Subscribe there and you'll get it immediately when it's published.

Until next week, thanks for listening and we'll see you soon.